Curse

Daemon · Apr 21, 2005, 03:40 AM // 03:40

I guess it's time I explained myself (and helped out those others who agree with me). I've mensioned several times on these forums how using anything other than fire puts you at a disadvantage as an elementalist(edit: from the beginning, the opposite becomes true as you progress). This is true. Now, before you click reply and tell me otherwise, remember we are talking about primary elementalists here. I am also not saying that the elementalist is unbalanced. What I am saying, is that the powerful, plentiful, efficent fire skills are much more effective, much less situational, and will bring you much more success when playing an elementalist (and by success I mean kills). Let's look at some numbers:

Flare: 16-40 fire damage if it hits, cost=5, cast=1, charge=0
LStrike: 5-41 lightning damage+25%armor pen, cost=5, cast=1, charge=5
ISpear: 10-46 cold damage if it hits (half range), cost=5, cast=1, charge=0
StoneD: 2x(3-20 earth damage), cost=5, cast=1, charge=0

Flare gives the most damage, period. At least two flares can be cast in the time of one lightning strike, making LS -25%AL next to useless as it still won't do enough damage, and flare can be cast at any range, so you don't have to get in close and risk a quick death, like you would with Ice Spear. At half the range, however, Ice Spear takes over for the most damage, but losing half the distance between you and your target is a high price to pay when your a caster. This comes back to Lightning Strike which is only truely effective against heavily armored foes, the likes of which you will want the least amount of contact with as possible. Stone daggers can match flare, and they do take over for max damage when up against moving foes as you only need one of the stone daggers to hit for damage. So here you have three skills that can beat flare, by a little bit, when your given the right situation. This alone makes them useful...but as useful? Not really. Here, fire wins.

Let's try Point Blank Area of Effect, or PBAOE. Air has whirlwind...and, well, whirlwind. Oh wait, we said area didn't we? Whirlwind doesn't have much 'area of effect' so don't bother. Lets see you kill people in melee using whirlwind with it's wimpy 15-51 cold damage and laggy recharge time of 20 seconds. "But it has knockdown!" you say. Not worth it. Only attacking foes that are directly next to you get knocked down. You don't want to be in that situation if your a caster. And 'maybe' interrupting them every twenty seconds isn't going to save you. You won't last 20 seconds whirlwinding them to death.
Let's try water. Frozen burst! Wards! ...hrmm...you won't kill people with wards. Frozen Burst? That sounds cool. A cost of 15 energy? Must be decent. 20-68 cold damage and foes are slowed for 5-10 seconds?!? 30 recharge? THIRTY RECHARGE!! Nobody cares about 68 damage every 30 seconds. That slowing might help though. Might help you run away from that which you wish to do, and not really help your situation at all. Ok, it has some uses, but you can't kill anything with it.
Earth must have something. Crystal wave, after shock, grasping earth, and some more wards! What's this? More than ONE pbaoe damage spell? Rock on! Earth has a whopping two skills that cause pbaoe damage. Aftershock is hard to use...but feel free to hook it up with that wonderful whirlwind we talking about earlier. Crystal wave is nice, and its a little larger than melee too. Could help out. Ignores armor and resistance, 82 damage. Some real potential there. It only costs 15en, and takes 20 seconds to recharge. Wow. Sure makes me want to invest points into earth for ONE skill.
Now, let's go back to fire. We've got lava font, flame burst, inferno and phoenix. All damage dealing. Each doing nearly 100 damage. That's. Two of them have recharge times below five. Time to spam. Might as well make two of them only 10en too so you can spam and spam and spam. I think fire takes the pbaoe battle too.

Ranged aoe? Don't even bother. Fire has fire storm, meteor, meteor shower, rodgorts invocation, searing heat, incendiary bonds, fire ball.....water has a couple, but only one that will really hurt your foe. Earth has two or three at gianormous costs. Air has an incredible three, of which only one actually does damage, and it just happens to cause exhaustion. Fire hits it once again.

So what are the other elements good for? Good question. The answer is simple really: support. You won't be killing anything with earth, air or water, but you will definitely become more effecive when you use them in combination with your fire skills or your primary profession. (Heck, they might as well just make fire the elementalists primary profession.)

My only complaint is that you can't really be a ______ elementalist and expect to kill things like you would a fire elementalist. You just can't, plain and simple. It would be fun though, and I would sure as heck like to not have to rely on fire so much. In that sense, it isn't balanced. A lightning strike with no recharge or armor pen would be nice, just so you could have fun dabbling in that element and not feel guilty. Until then, be friendly to fire, and it will be friendly to you.

lllCo2lll · Apr 21, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05

I'm not so knowledgable with elementalist skills, but from my understanding with the description Air is "supposed" to exceed in single target damage with its armor penetration, and Fire for its really high damage aoe spells, and water and earth are more for support with conjuction to work with the two... I don't remember which skill it was but it was something like if you used some sort of water or air skill it'll work even better if that opponent had some sort of air or water hex on him...

Daemon · Apr 21, 2005, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by lllCo2lll

I'm not so knowledgable with elementalist skills, but from my understanding with the description Air is "supposed" to exceed in single target damage with its armor penetration, and Fire for its really high damage aoe spells, and water and earth are more for support with conjuction to work with the two... I don't remember which skill it was but it was something like if you used some sort of water or air skill it'll work even better if that opponent had some sort of air or water hex on him...

Your thinking of shock, and your absolutely right about what the elements are supposed to do. And they do...somewhat.

A large portion of the 'complaints' about this have just been because x person wants to use x element for x purpose...and they can't. I'm one of them.

tektonik · Apr 21, 2005, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Ok you know I was gonna number crunch and what not but I give up. Fire is superior in AoE, thats it. Anyone who has PvP's for more than an hour realises that AoE has very few actual uses. ALso your little flare thing? cute it is really. Sorry but Flaregunning has been tried and you can try it but it won't do you much good.

1)AL effecting it makes it do crap damage. 75al for instance makes your 40 damage do 30. and I hope you never plan on shooting a tank.

2)Sustained DPS does nothing in PvP that can't be easily countered you want short burts of high DPS to a single target 70% of the time. Air is vastly superior in this respec.

ok time for some AoE smackdown:

Quote:

Now, let's go back to fire. We've got lava font, flame burst, inferno and phoenix. All damage dealing. Each doing nearly 100 damage. That's. Two of them have recharge times below five. Time to spam. Might as well make two of them only 10en too so you can spam and spam and spam. I think fire takes the pbaoe battle too.

Ranged aoe? Don't even bother. Fire has fire storm, meteor, meteor shower, rodgorts invocation, searing heat, incendiary bonds, fire ball.....water has a couple, but only one that will really hurt your foe. Earth has two or three at gianormous costs. Air has an incredible three, of which only one actually does damage, and it just happens to cause exhaustion. Fire hits it once again.

Pbaoe and AOE? who are you going to AoE besides the tanks pounding on your RUNNING monk? Even if you do hit them you are gonna be going up against 50% DR oh nows 50 damage! casters dont stay close together and they surely move. Ranged AoE? 4/7 of those spells have exhaustion and cost 25 energy.

Quote:

So what are the other elements good for? Good question. The answer is simple really: support. You won't be killing anything with earth, air or water, but you will definitely become more effecive when you use them in combination with your fire skills or your primary profession. (Heck, they might as well just make fire the elementalists primary profession.)

My only complaint is that you can't really be a ______ elementalist and expect to kill things like you would a fire elementalist. You just can't, plain and simple. It would be fun though, and I would sure as heck like to not have to rely on fire so much. In that sense, it isn't balanced. A lightning strike with no recharge or armor pen would be nice, just so you could have fun dabbling in that element and not feel guilty. Until then, be friendly to fire, and it will be friendly to you.

LAWLZ. wow. I think you disregard any point of armor. Take a Lightning Orb + Lightning Strike + Ennervating Charge and it will out spike any decent fire build you put together. There are complexities to GW that you're just not grasping and this is one of them....Fire is AoE and weak DD. Air is superior DD based on the fact of Armor reduction alone.

LoneDust · Apr 21, 2005, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Attacking in melee with elementalist's 60AL armor using PBAOE is a great idea to damage the enemies.. if they have the same intelligence as the AI mobs. Once you bring this build to serious pvp, it won't be nearly as effective as the numbers are showing you. People don't just stand in your point blank area of effect for no reason.

They would only risk standing in AoE if they know for sure they can kill you in the next 5 seconds. If you are not their target, all they have to do is get away from you, and kept on attacking their intended target. Basically, you are not doing enough damage while your teammates are alive, and are not going to live long enough once your teammates (mainly monks) are dead.

The idea of using PBAoE applies to very narrow situation, like a king of the hill map, for example, where everyone is trying to kill the guildlord in the last two minutes.

The DPS is good, but will be hard to carry out. Please don't assume others like to get themselves killed as much as you do.

lllCo2lll · Apr 21, 2005, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Well lets try not to bash others opinions now eh

remember carebear episodes and all of you should be fine... ahem anyhow in all due respects each type of elementalist is good for its way of dealing so you really can't say so and so sucks and air elementalist should be meant for single targets while a fire is more for aoe. I remember in PvP randoms two wa/mnks tried to gank on me when I played the pre-built Pyromancer, and I blasted them to smitherines hehe... but thats because they couldn't heal themselves since a mesmer/monk basically killed their energy with a mesmer skill forgot what it was but it was like chain shackle or something (too lazy to look up the skill) heh

But yeah its really just depending on the group you are facing, situation and what not all builds if played correctly is good

Dreamsmith · Apr 21, 2005, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Are you looking to build a PvE farmer? Fire is by far and away the single best element for farming, for all the reasons you state.

But if you're trying to kill one specific individual, err, is there any element worse than fire? There is certainly better (*cough* Air *cough*).

What are the other elements good for? Well, almost anything other than farming...

Quote:

Originally Posted by lllCo2lll

I remember in PvP randoms two wa/mnks tried to gank on me when I played the pre-built Pyromancer, and I blasted them to smitherines hehe...

Sure. No one is saying fire is useless in PvP (or they shouldn't). It's just not the very best.

Mercury Angel · Apr 21, 2005, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Lightning touch, that is.
Actually pretty painful (to an area) in conjunction with deep freeze, and it's ~a PbAoE, as you have to touch them to trigger it, and lacks exhaustion.
But, the recharge time is a major pain on it.

Nitpicking aside, I enjoy each of the elements the way they are.

Edit: to the question about the skill that increases damage with the water hex as asked above a number of posts >.<

Ensign · Apr 21, 2005, 05:10 AM // 05:10

I regretted reading your post enough that I had to reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daemon

I've mensioned several times on these forums how using anything other than fire puts you at a disadvantage as an elementalist.

Just as you've been wrong every time you've said this before, you're wrong again. But this time we'll explain in detail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daemon

Let's look at some numbers:

Oooh! I love this game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daemon

Flare: 16-40 fire damage if it hits, cost=5, cast=1, charge=0
LStrike: 5-41 lightning damage+25%armor pen, cost=5, cast=1, charge=5
ISpear: 10-46 cold damage if it hits (half range), cost=5, cast=1, charge=0
StoneD: 2x(3-20 earth damage), cost=5, cast=1, charge=0

First, what the hell are we doing talking about Flare? That's a skill that you should leave in lowbie Ascalon - Conjure + Wand just plain beats it out at higher level.

Second, let's use realistic numbers for these skills - 16 attribute, armor penetration calculated in:

Flare: 48 damage, 5 energy, 1 second, 27.4 DPS, 9.6 DPE.
Ice Spear: 58 damage, 5 energy, 1 second, 33.1 DPS, 11.6 DPE.
Stone Daggers: 50 damage, 5 energy, 1 second, 28.57 DPS, 10 DPE.

Then the one that doesn't quite fit:

Lightning Strike (60 AL): 69 damage, 5 energy, 1 second, 5 recharge, 39.4 DPS, 13.8 DPE.
Lightning Strike (100 AL): 82 damage, 5 energy, 1 second, 5 recharge, 46.9 DPS, 16.4 DPE.

Obviously Strike is a whole lot better than any of the above per cast (plus it autohits), which is why it has a cooldown and gets to be worked into a casting chain.

So let's compare the top 3 to my personal favorite: Conjure + Wand. Ignore criticals and convert to the appropriate spell:

Conjure + Wand: 36.8 damage, .143 energy, 1 second, 21 DPS, 257 DPE.

Of the three comparable skills, Flare does the least damage. It does have a higher range than Ice Spear, but even at long range it's basically strictly worse than Stone Daggers - less damage, more common/resisted damage type, more risky (one projectile vs. two.)

But the more fun comparison is Flare against Conjure + Wand. As you can see, Flare does damage 30% faster, but consumes energy 1,643% faster. Is that a fair tradeoff for your energy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daemon

Let's try Point Blank Area of Effect, or PBAOE.

First off, why? PBAoE is even worse than Flare spam. You have to run up to your target, introducing all the problems that come with it - the time wasted, the vulnerability. Then let's look at the marquee fire PBAoE spell - Flame Burst, at level 16:

Flame Burst: 119 damage, .75 second cast, 15 energy, 5 second cooldown.

Oh, and a 1.75 second aftercast. What's that? You didn't see that in the skill description? That's because it's a secret. PBAoE got a silent nerf - after casting Flame Burst, Inferno, Crystal Wave, or any of the 'fast casting' PBAoEs, you get to stand around and do nothing for a full second longer than you normally would. What does that do to your DPS?

Flame Burst: 47.6 DPS

Congratulations, you deal damage like a minimally acceptable Warrior (which currently kick up into the low 70s on melee DPS. Yeah, it's a bit high, but what can you do?)

Look at the Earth PBAoEs. Aftershock deals 105 damage, plus bonus on knockdown, and it costs less (but recycles more quickly). Crystal Wave ignores armor, making its damage truly exceptional against higher level mobs whose armor easily hits or passes 100. No, fire is far from a standout on aggressive PBAoE.

Where it does have a bonus is on slowcast PBAoE, the 'reactive' PBAoE that is really only useful when you're the focus of a melee mob - it doesn't cast fast enough to be used proactively. This would be Lava Font and Phoenix, two solid skills under these circumstances that you should seriously consider running.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daemon

Ranged aoe? Don't even bother.

It would be a whole lot easier to take this sort of argument seriously if you filtered out the skills that are utter shit, instead of just listing every AoE skill available. You don't get to use every skill, only the top few make the cut. Searing Heat? Rodgort's Invocation? Please. Those skills are beyond awful, and it's people leaning on skills like those that have fueled the 'fire is awful' mentality for so long. Rodgort's Invocation is impossibly slow at 5 seconds, and what do you get for it? You tack 3 seconds of burning onto your Fireball? For 25 energy? I have no idea why people think this skill is any good. Searing Heat? Just take it head to head with Eruption:

Searing Heat: 31 DPS over 5 seconds, 42 burn damage on end, 25 Energy, 3 second cast, 30 second recharge, exhaustion.
Eruption: 36 DPS over 5 seconds, plus blind on end, 25 energy, 3 second cast, 30 second recharge, no exhaustion.

The difference? Searing Heat deals 17 more damage over its lifetime, at the cost of losing blindness on the target and suffering exhaustion.

Why would anyone ever use Searing Heat over Eruption?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daemon

Earth has two or three at gianormous costs.

Ginormous costs? Have you looked at the Fire spells you're talking about recently? 15 energy, 25 energy, 25 energy, 15 energy. Incredibly cheap, no?

A direct comparison between some of top nukes of the respective lines spells out what the different lines are good at:

Fire: Immolate, Fireball, Firestorm
Air: Lightning Orb, Lightning Strike, Chain Lightning
Water: Ice Spikes, Deep Freeze, Maelstrom
Earth: Stoning, Earthquake, Eruption

You don't even have to dig very deeply to see what's going on here. Fire is the standard for AoE damage - it's expensive, but it's fairly fast and effective. Air is much more effective at knocking out single targets, particularly those with heavy armor (which, for our purposes, is everything). These two are your top two raw damage lines, and it's apparent that they each have their own purposes - with a bit of crossover evident in Immolate and Chain Lightning. If you need a key target dead now, use air. If you need crowd control, use fire.

What about the other two lines? Water, roughly, is a hybrid of air and fire that sacrifices roughly 25% of its damage output to tack on hard disruption - chain knockdowns with Trident, slows with Freeze, interrupts with Maelstrom. If your tactics have evolved even slightly to incorporate things besides damage and healing, you'll understand how this can be an outstanding tradeoff.

Earth? It's harder to see from the nukes, but it's apparent in the rest of the skills - Earth is a defensive line, with wards, armors, and attack skills that knock down, blind, or otherwise impede the ability of the opponent to deal damage. Even if you haven't recognized the value of disruption, as with water, you should recognize the value of armor and added defense.

So what are the lines good for? Fire is best at AoE and rawdog damage. Lightning is better at pinpoint damage and at knocking out key targets. Water is damage with moderate disruption, Earth is damage with defense. All have their places.

It's that simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daemon

My only complaint is that you can't really be a ______ elementalist and expect to kill things like you would a fire elementalist.

Sure you can. If you're looking at a single target, Air is going to kill it *faster* than a Fire Elementalist could even dream - AoE is wasted, and it can merely look at 130+ damage Lightning Orbs in awe. Water doesn't kill quite as fast, but it is potentially even more deadly - it can kill an opponent before they even have a chance to close. Which is better, killing three seconds faster, or killing them before they get to take a swing? Earth doesn't need to kill as fast, because while it might be dishing out 2/3 as much damage, the Earth Elementalist is only taking 1/4 the damage. In a race against an opponent, I'd gladly trade 1/3 of my damage for 3/4 of theirs.

How does a Fire Elementalist kill? As fast as possible, because he has to - enemies will be in his face quickly, and he has no recourse. He's at his best against packs of weaker enemies - but when he comes up against a strong foe who's a serious threat, Fire is the last line he wants to be relying upon.

Peace,
-CxE

Elfis · Apr 21, 2005, 05:30 AM // 05:30

I thought I understood how armor penetration worked but apparently not. I thought casting lightning at a 100 armor target with 25% penetration acted like casting at a 75 armor target without penetration, and that casting that lightning at a 60 armor target was like casting at a 45 armor target with something else, but your numbers show you actually do more damage to high-armor targets with lightning?

One other question, you say warriors get over 70 dps? I have been thinking of making an illusionary weapon mesmer, but can't see approaching 70 dps with anything let alone IW. If that's so, why doesn't everyone make warriors?

lllCo2lll · Apr 21, 2005, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfis

I thought I understood how armor penetration worked but apparently not. I thought casting lightning at a 100 armor target with 25% penetration acted like casting at a 75 armor target without penetration, and that casting that lightning at a 60 armor target was like casting at a 45 armor target with something else, but your numbers show you actually do more damage to high-armor targets with lightning?

One other question, you say warriors get over 70 dps? I have been thinking of making an illusionary weapon mesmer, but can't see approaching 70 dps with anything let alone IW. If that's so, why doesn't everyone make warriors?

*raises hand... I also still a little iffy upon armor penetration... But really interested with Air elementalist..

tektonik · Apr 21, 2005, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfis

I thought I understood how armor penetration worked but apparently not. I thought casting lightning at a 100 armor target with 25% penetration acted like casting at a 75 armor target without penetration, and that casting that lightning at a 60 armor target was like casting at a 45 armor target with something else, but your numbers show you actually do more damage to high-armor targets with lightning?

Multiply don't subtract and you have it. 100 x .75 and 60 x .75

to your seconds: It can happen and KOR proved it. SIde note: IW is crap

Scaphism · Apr 21, 2005, 05:41 AM // 05:41

@Daemon- I've rarely seen someone be so smug about being so wrong.

Please make sure when you post something in our forums, you have your facts in order. This is how people get misinformed about the game- people bragging that Fire is hands down the best line without the facts to prove it.

I think Ensign's done a terrific job of thouroughly disproving every point you tried to make, but I'd like to introduce a few others.

The fact that you consider Flare a skill worth playing already displays an ignorance of what contitutes a worthwhile skill. That you fail to grasp the difference between Flare and the others is less surprising, but when you continually tout Flare as the best among them...

Quote:

Flare gives the most damage, period.

Yet two lines later you contradict yourself.

Quote:

At half the range, however, Ice Spear takes over for the most damage

Ignoring Immolate is a sin. It used to be far and away the best Fire nuke in the game- doing 83 damage for 10 energy and a 1s cast time, + 0.75s aftercast. True, you can cast nearly 3 flares in 5 seconds, but if you're chain spamming flare you're shooting yourself in the foot-opening yourself up to more counters and interrupts, spending your energy inefficiently, and not spending any time casting spells that are actually effective. What you want is a chain of good spells- Orb + Surge + Strike, for example- not repeated amounts of piddly damage- i.e. Flare, Flare Flare.

I shouldn't be surprised that the improvement to Fireball and Incediary Bonds escaped notice, but they both recieved significant boosts, namely a reduction in cast time and an increase in damage, respectively. But then again, you don't care about spells that might have gone from trash (fireball at 3s cast time) to useable (fireball with 2s cast time). Instead you want to Flare Spam someone while charging in to use....Inferno?

I think PBAOE has been covered in-depth, but if you want to claim that flare is superior to ice spear because it doesn't require you to run into melee range of your enemies, then why are you even stopping to consider PBAOE attacks?

The fact is that Fire is the least versatile of all the damage lines. You have damage attacks and....damage attacks.
It has more AOE attacks than the others, but Ensign has pointed out that Fire excells at killing groups of weak enemies, so it shines in PvE where you run into many packs of enemies like that.
When you fight anything harder than a pack of moss scarabs 7 levels below you, you might need to start employing a little more thought to your tactics.

While Fire has the most PBAOE attacks, they are all completely one dimensional. They can do damage...or damage.
Every single other line offers a defense mechanism, which you have clearly overlooked, since in your zeal you have decided that rushing in to kill with Fire PBAOE is better than getting away from the enemies intent on killing you.

Frozen Burst, Whirlwind, and Grasping Earth all snare your enemies, allowing you to escape. If you are a fire elementalist, and your initial volley wasn't enough to kill an enemy, and Inferno (with it's 1.75s aftercast) wont either, then you're probably wishing the target was snared or knocked down, rather than the extra 10 or 15 points of damage that Inferno gives you.

For everyone else, please make sure you have your facts in order when you decide to post here. Guru is the most informative Guild Wars site for a reason- because we have the quick, reliable, and most of all, accurate info. Without accuracy, the rest don't matter.

Daemon · Apr 21, 2005, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Some great information to finally get squeezed out, and thank you. But I still stand by my point (and I'll apologize for the frustration). All of the above examples are talking organzied pvp, to a degree. You're right about lightning against higher armored foes....I even said that. But not all foes are heavily armored! I wasn't making any build, so I don't know why it was referred to as that. I was simply stating that from an overall viewpoint, pre-searing to tombs, fire will kill more enemies by doing more damage, less situationally. Forget continuous knockdown of water trident, the foes have to be moving. Forget the amazing pin point damage of lighting, cast times/recharge times/damage output just aren't enough to be effective until much later in the game (15en and 2 cast for lightning orb? give me a break...). Earth is defensive, but you can't kill someone that way. I don't disagree with anything that was said, and most of was just an elaberate tangent flying off of what I already mensioned in what I thought to be laymans terms. I'm talking basic here.

Now, to support the other side, let's use mesmers as an example. They are, and correct me if I'm wrong, the most situational of all the classes. This doesn't make them deadly, but it makes them devastating when used in those situations, just like the other elements of the elementalist. Now, organized pvp is all about getting a strategic hold on those 'situations'. Fire is the opposite. It's simple, it's easy, it's damage, it's what some would argue the elementalist is all about.

I never once said any one element was better. I thought

Quote:

Now, before you click reply and tell me otherwise, remember we are talking about primary elementalists here. I am also not saying that the elementalist is unbalanced. What I am saying, is that the powerful, plentiful, efficent fire skills are much more effective, much less situational, and will bring you much more success when playing an elementalist.

would make enough sense.

I think we could all use a some clarification on just how AL and armor penetration works. Any links would be helpful

EDIT: After reading Scaphisms post too, I will re-read my first post to see where this misunderstand is coming from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

They can do damage...or damage.

I thought that was the point I was trying to convey...

tektonik · Apr 21, 2005, 06:07 AM // 06:07

So you are talking about PvE? Why even waste bandwidth? Anyone can kill in PvE even Nec/Rang. Organization > Attributes used in PvE

Ranis Harlequin · Apr 21, 2005, 06:18 AM // 06:18

I was, hopefully, talking about all of the above. Special situations aside, fire puts out more damage. That doesn't mean it's any better, or any worse as it's now been put. Like I said before, the elementalist is not unbalanced. Fire is very useful in pve. You get it quickly, and it thwarts your foes very nicely. In pvp it's much less the concept, but not entirely obsolete either.

EDIT: Sorry for the identity switch, I'm the same person. Just checking pm's from my old account and forgot to switch back.

EDIT: To the post just below: Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Apr 21, 2005, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daemon

fire will kill more enemies by doing more damage, less situationally. Forget continuous knockdown of water trident, the foes have to be moving.

You're starting to sound like alot of alpha testers...

Volume II · Apr 21, 2005, 06:34 AM // 06:34

You know what. When all those melee creeps come up against my air ele, I'll just throw up Glimmering Mark and watch them swing at me for a while, just because it's so damn funny. Or maybe thunderclap, and knock them all don, even though that'll drain my mana like no other.

Besides that, I understand where you're coming from now. I thought at first you were talking about PvP, and I was thinking, "does this guy even understand interrupts?" Had I known you were talking more about PvP, I would have agreed more. But next time I suggest you not jump to conclusions about things. It was an interesting read, though.

chalt2 · Apr 21, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by tektonik

So you are talking about PvE? Why even waste bandwidth? Anyone can kill in PvE even Nec/Rang. Organization > Attributes used in PvE

So I take that to mean that anyone that might be interested in playing PvE shouldn't be granted the same right to information as those that choose to participate in PvP?

That would seem a bit narrow minded, don't you think?

Having toyed with the idea of running a Pyromancer for my PvE build it would now seem like a good choice and I was thinking also of a build centered around Air magic as my PvP build would be a good choice as well. Good info from both side on this one, now we just need the release to put the ideas to the test.

tektonik · Apr 21, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Such a heated debate on what is needed for PvE isn't really needed because you, as I have said, can do well in PvE with almost any build.